VOTE NO ON PROP 4!!!

VOTE NO ON PROP 4

Unless you want to start reading stories about teenage girls bleeding to death after trying to use a coat hanger to perform an abortion because they could not bring themselves to tell their parents of a pregnancy.

Prop 4 would also make it much more difficult for a girl to reveal abuse occurring in her home... If parents are required to accompany girls to the doctor, these girls, and there are many of them, will never speak up.

Prop 4 creates unsafe conditions for children.

VOTE NO ON PROP 4

unfortunately, good point.

Vote yes. It is idiots like Heathen and others that spread fear and lies about something they know nothing about.

IT IS TIME TO LET THE PARENTS TAKE THEIR CHILDREN BACK FROM THE STATE.

This initiative "Sarahs Law" was named for a young woman that was poisoned after a botched doctor-procured abortion - and her parents knew nothing about why she was wasnt ok until it was too late.

Prop 4 doesn't outlaw abortion, it insists that parents know about a major surgery that their teenage daughter would be undergoing. If children cannot get their ears pierced or take an aspirin in school without parental permission, shouldn't parents also know about a surgery they might have and all the psychological ramifications that follow. Vote Yes for parental rights and ensure these at-risk teens get the help they need but may be afraid to ask for. Vote Yes for Sarah's Law Prop 4.

"Heathen and others that spread fear and lies about something they know nothing about."

- Nice try, lamo. Too bad you're way off base:

"Self-induced abortions are usually performed when circumstances (legal constraints, medical unavailability, concerns about medical quality, cost, concerns about secrecy) prohibit women from seeking preferred procedures. Presently there are more in developing countries where abortion is illegal or unavailable, but they do occur in developed countries as well."

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-induced_abortion#cite_note-0

Note that the page I referenced lists many reliable sources of information on this topic. I urge voters to be informed.

Also of interest is the fact that prop 4 is a repeat of Proposition 73 in 2005 and Proposition 85 in 2006, both of which were soundly defeated.

This proposition would modify our state's constitution... something I never support unless there is a very, very good reason.

VOTE NO ON PROP 4

Ask yourself this question:

Are you more likely to take a look at the information from reliable sources when making a voting decision, or will you listen to the unsubstantiated, angry and irresponsible claims of those who rant while presenting no evidence of their claims?

The problem is..there are parents who don't talk to their children about sex...because they are uncomfortable themselves with bringing up the topic..

Some parents are abusers and/or fundamentalist fanatics..and assume that their children will never have those feelings...because of their imposed "moral family values". A teenager in that position has no way out..and no place to go..

If a teen is considering abortion...(prior to any such proceedure)..she is given options. Every case and circumstance is different. It is my understanding that they are not forced into making a decision for abortion..and they are given options and counseling...

Those who are pushing Prop 4 are anti abortion period...and this gives them an excuse to act on their anti choice agenda. It is "my way or no way" mentality..."Do as I do" regardless of the circumstances..

Perhaps their children are able to speak out freely and discuss anything with them...and then again...maybe not ?? None of us can be sure about that...regardless the family dynamic..

When a child is raised in an anti-choice home..they are going to be reluctant to tell their parents for fear of not only disapproval, but of being forced to carry the fetus to term..or be forced to give up the child at birth..

There is also the possibility of an unreported rape situation...Should a teenager be forced to carry the rapists child? What about fathers and/or a close family member who would force a child or young woman into incest? Should a teenager be forced to tell the abuser of her situation? I don't think so..It should be reported to the authorities...and she should be removed from that situation..get medical help and counseling immediately..

Thank God we have medical professionals who can help these teens to make informed decisions..and support them in the event there is abuse in their homes..Vote NO on Prop 4..to protect their rights!

If you are convinced that your child can speak to you about anything..then you have nothing to worry about! If you are not sure your daughter would confide in you...then get busy and speak to her about the issue and make sure that she knows you are open and will support her..regardless of the circumstances. Then you won't have to be concerned about what other people decide is best for her!

It sounds to me like many don't trust or know their own children..Maybe that is where you should concentrate your anti abortion ( before the fact)concerns???..

Wow! Well said and very insightful.

What the "Sarah's Law" backers won't tell you is that the 15-year-old "Sarah" was married at the time she died, so the law would not have applied to her.

Why couldn't the backers of this law have found a REAL minor who wasn't married and died after an abortion that her parents weren't told about?

Oh yeah, there isn't one.

This law is designed so parents can have fascistic authority over their kids.

If you're a GOOD parent, your daughter will tell you if she becomes pregnant and decides to explore her options. If your daughter doesn't tell you about her pregnancy, maybe there's a reason for that.

Think about it.

Let me encourage everyone to watch The Live Candidates' Forum this Thursday (10/16/2008)for Redding City Council Candidates and this Friday (10/17/2008) for Anderson City Council Candidates on Redding Community Access Channel 11 beginning at 7 PM....It's LIVE ~
Simulcast on CH 9 KIXE......

It is important to listen before you vote!

For more info go here:

http://www.accessredding.org/rdgforum.htm

Carl Bott is the Moderator the media questioners are Bruce Ross of the R/S and Colin McAvoy of CH7.

Sharon Waranius is the Producer. Should be a great forum lots of City issues to be considered.

If you want a question asked go to the website and type in the ? you want the answer to!

-concerning Proposition #4

Notification laws (like prop 4) are currently on the books in 30 states.
I challenge those who oppose prop 4 to show ONE example of a girl harmed by a notification law in any of those 30 states.
~~~
Prop #4 is also known as "Sarah's Law".
It is named after a 15 year old girl who died after having a secret abortion (from a deadly infection). If her parents had known about her abortion they would have had the necessary knowledge to determine the cause of her high fever, and get her the neccesary medical attention that could have saved her life.
~~~
Prop #4 includes the following.
* Provides notification exemptions for medical emergency or parental waiver.
* Permits notification to certain adult relatives if doctor reports parent to law enforcement, or child protection services.
* Does NOT require parental consent to the abortion.
~~~
Prop #4 will protect underage girls from further victimization from sexual predators who can, and do take these girls to get abortions to cover up the sex laws they are breaking.
~~~
An emphatic - YES on 4!!!

I can think about it...all of the sisters in my family (4 of them) were told by my dad that should they ever become pregnant, he would throw them out on the street and tell everyone how evil and bad they were. He was dead serious and he would get red in the face as he would be yelling this out. He was an educated man and a very hard worker. However, his common sense went out the window when it came to his daughters. These rules did not apply to the brothers, though. One brother was 18 and dating a 16 year old girl. That was just fine by dad.

Thank you...I hope people will take the time to think this Prop 4 through before voting their anti-abortion bias...

We must remember that every situation is different..as well as take into consideration..the fact that not all young girls have family support..

Those teens who do feel secure and have the support..of their families will confide in their parents..so that makes it a non issue...

Cato proudly proclaims - "It (prop 4) is named after a 15 year old girl who died after having a secret abortion (from a deadly infection). If her parents had known about her abortion they would have had the necessary knowledge to determine the cause of her high fever, and get her the neccesary medical attention that could have saved her life."

- What you fail to address, as Treehugger pointed out earlier, is that "Sarah" was already married and her parents would not have been notified, and would not have had any control over the situation, under the terms of this proposition.

What a sham prop 4 is! It's backers can't even find a single valid example of a girl that would have been helped by it's passage.

It's just another social conservative attempt to weaken the reproductive choices available women and girls of child bearing age.

VOTE NO ON PROP 4!

For some reason I thought you were a man...why are you concerned about abortions...are you even the father of a young girl?.

"This proposition would modify our state's constitution... something I never support unless there is a very, very good reason."

It doesn't matter who you are, male, female, father, mother, childless... This is the valid reason NorCal has for "No on 4"

It seems many people agree that modifying the constitution is something they do not support.

This does not pertain to woman/girls only. It should matter to everyone. Think it all the way through...

"For some reason I thought you were a man...why are you concerned about abortions...are you even the father of a young girl?."

- Come on Hermit... don't you understand that it's every citizens responsibility to encourage responsible legislation? It's our civic duty to stand up and voice our opinions, whatever those opinions may be.

*** Thanks to walkin_shoes and go-griz for very good responses to the Hermit as well.

Something that gets lost in the argument is the fact that many young women and girls have lost their life giving birth..Child birth is very dangerous as well..

Many young women have lost their life by taking their desperation to back alley butchers who performed abortions with dirty instruments..before it was legalized. You want to talk about the possibiliity of infection?..There you go..with the perfect back alley setting!

I would take more comfort knowing..if my daughter decided to have an abortion that she would be taken care of in a clean facility by a professional..I would take comfort knowing that she was not desperate enough to try something herself like a coat hanger as NorCalHeathen mentioned..

You anti-choice people may eventually succeed in taking away a womans right to choose...but you will never stop abortions..and many women and young girls will die because of it..

The government..nor anyone else has the right to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her own body..Early term abortion should remain legal..

Many fanatics think the "morning after" pill is killing a baby..They are nuts and I don't want these wackos deciding for me or mine..

We should not allow those in opposition to force any young woman into an act of desperation..Lets protect them and their rights..Vote No on Prop 4.....

As I have stated before - Don't believe in abortion? Then don't have one.

I have no doubt in my heart that there have been young girls who have committed suicide rather than face the wrath of their parents. There needs to be an unbiased place for these girls to go - some place safe where they can be embraced and helped through a difficult time in their life.

Norcal - you're quite welcome!

"VOTE NO ON PROP 4"

A remarkable thing happen when the courts ruled on Roe vs. Wade. For the first time in History ever, the courts ruled that a woman owned her entire body even an under-aged girl. No one has the right to tell a girl or a woman what she can do with her body not even her family. She, alone, makes this decision. I agree, no more coat hangers.

"She will not even want the people in the hospital to know about it"

Do you really think that a young girl would rather use a coat hanger..or a back alley butcher..than go to a doctor for help..if she had the choice and it was legal? I don't think so..

However she might decide to act in a drastic manner.. rather than tell her parents she is pregnant..

It would be very hard for many young girls to tell their family...especially if she knew her parents were totally against it..Think about it!

"I challenge those who oppose prop 4 to show ONE example of a girl harmed by a notification law in any of those 30 states."

I know many such cases from my work as a social worker. Don't be daft. It is a common situation.

"Something that gets lost in the argument is the fact that many young women and girls have lost their life giving birth..Child birth is very dangerous as well.."

This fact gets lost all of the time especially when the girl is 13 years old.

Yes exactly... and isn't it strange that it is never brought up in the argument. It is always about the fetus...and the mother is never a consideration...

Even when the mother is found to have a life threatening condition in advance of the delivery..many are against saving her..

The mother is expected to go ahead and risk her life as well as the childs...to please the prolife advocates. Something is very wrong with that logic..

That in my opinion is very selective life saving! Call it a selective pro life arguement..or stance..because that is what it really boils down to..

Who has the right other than the doctor and the mother to make that horrible decision?

Certainly not the neighborhood WATCH committee or Pastor Jones and his congregation...Not with my family...they won't make that decision!

"I bet there are many more that will use this anonymousity as freedom to have sex with no consequenses."

NO CONSEQUENCES?? You think abortion would be used as a form of birth control? How absurd..is that?

I can only speak from a position of living through child birth...but it is certainly no picnic...and I am sure that abortion would not only be a very hard decision to make..but a painful one as well.

Since I am assuming that you are a male...you probably can't relate...May I suggest that you give it some thought as to just how painful it might be..having a 6 to 10 lb delivery from any orifice ( select one) of your body..OUCH!

Then tell me anyone would use a painful surgical proceedure as well as the mental anguish associated with the decision..as a form of birth control so they can have sexual freedom???..Sorry that is not rational thinking...

One other point..about the abortion after a rape...and doing the right thing to put the rapist in jail???? What does that have to do with aborting the rapists fetus? Should the victim be forced to carry the rapists fetus while going to court to have him punished? Then it is okay that the victim is punished for life?

It is her decision...and many young girls and women have chosen to carry to term...But that would be a very difficult decision and very personal..It should not be forced on the victim by the government!

Okay I am finished with this...everyone carry on...have a good afternoon all..

I agree that you should be involved in your minor's life. Perhaps you would be a consoling, comforting and understanding parent. HOWEVER, there are parents out there that would/could terrorize their child if the child got pregnant. It's one of those issues that some parents would completely lose their lid over. This fear would force the teen to take matters into her own hands and that is where they would end up having an abortion performed by someone in an alley or mock office or worse yet, take their own life. It is for those teens that need a place to go for healthy assistance, including any psychological assistance.

Not all kids have compassionate parents when it comes to something like this. Trust me...I've heard the threats personally.

"this issue is not at all about abotion"

Finally, someone has said what this issue is not about. It has never been about abortion. It is about women's rights to do whatever she wants to do with her body. That is all it was about in the first place. It removes the last traces of control over women. In patriarchy, women are a free work force that is available 24/7 and even the body she gets at birth is at the service of patriarchy without the consent of the woman. If people were concerned about the children that are harmed in the womb they would picket all stores that sell cigarettes and no one is concerned.

Babies is the punishment that women have to endure for having sex without the official consent of marriage, so anyone that removes that punishment is interfering with that.

According to the opinion of those who oppose choice of women, women are the property of men. Instead of going forward, they want to go backwards in time when the bodies of women belonged to them and their labor and time also belonged to them. They are no different than the men in those countries who forbid women to drive cars and to have jobs outside the home and money of their own. Look how long it took for women to get the vote in this country.

The Sacramento Bee, going against its grain, has recommended "no" votes on all of the propositions except Proposition 11 (reapportionment).

The prevailing reason for the blanket dismissal, even on the do-good bond measures that the Bee usually supports: They all cost money, and until the State gets its financial house in shape, forget it.

I didn't need much convincing. Vote no on everything. Sounds good to me.

GoGriz - it sounds like you had a strict father but you turned out pretty well. I bet you are a great parent too!

One more thing - Don't you just love how republicans want government out of their lives but not women's lives?

"Free abortions even for those who parents are well insured or have plenty to pay for it. Even if the parents aren't "dangerous" as you want to think, she may opt this free one..."

- Free? Yeah... whatever dude. That is a myth commonly perpetuated by conservatives who assume (or are misinformed by others) that everything is paid for by the taxpayer. Your claim is simply false.

From the planned parenthood Website:

In-Clinic Abortion: Costs about $350–$900 in the first trimester

Abortion Pill: Costs about $350–$650

Source:
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-topics/abortion-4260.htm

P.S. - Didn't you know anyone in high school who got an abortion? It costs money!

My initial reaction to all the initiatives was to vote no on all except 5 and 11. After reading the Bee article, 5 was really costly so I put it in the "no" column also. After the latest State budget joke, we must do something about reapportionment. I'm still voting yes on 11. It's time for a real change in state government.

"One more thing - Don't you just love how republicans want government out of their lives but not women's lives?"

Or their wombs....

"Responding to my own previous post I realize I meant to say this issue isn't only an abortion issue. It's a parental rights issue."

Too late, the cat's out of the bag....

If this discussion was about males and their right to have a vasectomy..there would be no discussion.

Men are allowed to control their own bodies..and women have to be regulated by the government?? That is what this is really about..and Zebrareader nailed it..

This prop is designed to take abortion rights away. It is written under the guise of parental rights..when in fact it takes the rights of young women away..

Of course any medical proceedure is a parental concern...but where do the rights of the young women begin and end?..How many decisions is she allowed to make for her own body?

As a parent..I do not claim ownership of my daughters body..This prop takes the young womans rights away and notifies the parents..sending the message that she has no rights to make a decision about her own body..

We raise our children to be responsible and take responsibility for their actions and to care for their own bodies...don't we? We advise them not to be sexual until it is right time...and then we caution them to use protection...

After receiving all this sage advice...we (as parents) don't follow through...and accompany our daughters on her dates to enforce that responsibility for her...do we?

All we can do is hope they follow our advice...and make the right decisions..It is about ownership and responsibility..all part of becoming an adult.

Or do we raise our daughters, and send them off to college at eighteen...with no control..no responsibility..and force them to call home before making any decisions about anything?

I am certainly not pro abortion..I am pro choice..and it should remain a personal and private decision...

Each circumstance is different..and not all young women will want to have an abortion..just beause she can..It is absurd to believe that..CHOICE is the operative..

The problem is that not all parents will react in a rational manner after being told their teen is pregnant..

Some parents will be angry, some will be sad..some will be supportive and stand by her decisions..There are any number of reactionary possibilities..when a parent is receiving such shocking news.

We can't be sure that every parent will act in the best interest of their daughter..can we? That is lost in the debate..as well..
VOTE NO ON PROP 4 and protect our daughters rights!

You are wrong...it is about stopping choice..This is only a starting point..or yet another attempt to prevent women from making their choices. Young girls have rights as well as women...they are indeed young women...It is their body...their life and their decision..

Yes these young women need guidence to make a good decision...but professionals are better able to do it because of the lack of personal emotion..with more clarity than upset parents..hearing that their young daughter is pregnant...

A young girl 13 who finds herself pregnant may indeed have a loving parent who will step forward and support her..but that is not always the case. As pointed out earlier...there are parents who would not react calmly and support the young girl. It all depends on circumstances and that is what is wrong with this Prop 4. It does not serve in the best interest of all..only a few...

This issue is not a "one shoe fits all" proposition..It might work out for some young girls but for many more..it would be a horrible ordeal for them..especially if she was abused by one of her "loving" family members..Adding a notification of her condition by law..adds insult to injury..

Not all young girls have good parents...that is the bottom line here..That is the point that you are missing...We are not talking about how you or I would react...we are talking about how everyone who is notified at such a time will react...These girls need the support of professionals...not their abusers..when going through such an ordeal...

If their parents are so great...then they will confide in their parents first..If they are afraid to do that...then there is a problem...There is a reason WHY they do not want their parents to know!

That is why I say..everyone should talk to their daughters about this and make sure they know that they can depend on support from their parents regardless of the situation..A confidence and trust must be established...between the child and parent before the fact...not after..